What do Mormons believe - part 7

Not much I’ll comment on with this post. (I’ve done my share today!)

We believe that God works among men and women for the edification of humanity (men and women).

You’ve mentioned the unique interpretation Mormons have of Matthew 16, and how it is not Peter who is the focus of the passage but rather “revelation”. Many Christians will “split the difference” and point to the confession of faith as the foundation of the church. Not a very far stretch.

Pondering Pastor

Rusty,

Absolutely I had no intent in making you angry, just the opposite. Rusty, I also ask that you do not belittle me or my questions as they are asked with sincerity.

My question wasn’t whether men had sinned, or if they could fall away from the truth, or if there are enemies of the gospel. I think you are willdly whacking away and quoting Scripture to prove that point.

Again, I’m asking if man’s sinfulness can thwart the plans of God. You have claimed that Christ ceased building His Church because of the “great apostasy” until a complete restoration was given to Joseph Smith. Please note your comments”

“When Christ was crucified, there began a great apostasy, where truth diminished, the gospel became polluted with the teachings man, and the rights of the priesthood were removed from the earth, for those who held it were killed, or died. Because of that great falling away, it became crucial for a complete restoration, not only of truth, but of authority, for the work of God must continue today as it did in Christ’s time.”

Did Pharaoh or his magicians stop Him from leading His chosen out of Egypt? If His will is “I will build my Church”, then please tell me where He went wrong?

Profoundly put (and sorry, I mistook your calling me foolish for derision).

What I meant to illustrate by that barrage of scriptures, was that each of these references show how wickedness can indeed thwart the progress of the work of God. I wouldn’t say it stops the “plans” of God, for He is all knowing and all powerful, but because of his respect for free agency, and because of the law of justice, he allows there to be consequences for our actions, one of those being that we push him away.

Look at it on an individual scale. It’s not God’s will that a man will reject him. He wants all men to believe in him. But still, some do not. Does that constitute a failure for God? Does it somehow show that he’s powerless, or incapable? Certainly not. But he has chosen to give men free agency, and as such, we must be accountable for our actions.

This is a small scale, where one person rejects god, or chooses to push him out of their lives. The apostasy was simply this, but on a grand scale. Still, it doesn’t constitute failure, but represents his divine devotion to our freedom.

In short, the choices of man can thwart the progress of the Lords work, at the very least in their own lives (and when magnified over many souls, the effect is compounded exponentially). But is that thwarting his plan or does it suggest that at some point he went wrong? I’d suggest no. I’d suggest that due to the omniscience of God, all of that is part of his plan. The single scripture below (taken from my previous whacking) illustrates this…

Amos 8:11-12 “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, not a thirst for water, but of hearing the word of the lord; and they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east; they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.”

I don’t think you could say that god wants to hide the word of the Lord, but he says that he will send the famine. In other words, it seems to be all a part of his great plan, that there should be “a falling away first” (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

We all believe in a loving God.

As I look at the life of the savior, he didn’t go around persecuting people though for their beliefs, it was the other way around. He was open and honest in saying that their doctrines were incorrect, but he didn’t persecute them, or seek out debates or opportunities for refutation. Instead, he simply set about teaching his gospel, and when others came to oppose him, he was honest with them. Strikingly similar to this blog, and others about Mormonism.

I think that’s the point that “abritdifferent” is making. I too find it fascinating how as you browse other religions blogs, or public sermons, you don’t find many Mormons (I’ve never found a single one) there seeking to refute them. Conversely, as you browse public forums discussing Mormonism, they’re full of opposition rising up against them.

Even my friend the Pondering Pastor, who just happens to be one of the most accepting of religious leaders I’ve met (if you see his comment about how he views other Christian sects over on the 5th post), mentioned that as soon as he found my blog talking about Mormonism, said he felt compelled to refute it.

I’ve always found it an interesting scenario. Perhaps I’m being naive or seeing what I want to see, but I can’t help but draw the parallel to the life of Christ I mentioned earlier. It seems that wherever there is the most risk to the adversary, or the most promise of righteousness and truth, there too will be the fiercest opposition.

The Mormon Church has been persecuted with tremendous and sustained efforts ever since its infancy. It began with Joseph Smith. Think of how strange it is that a simple 14 year old farm boy with practically no formal education, essentially a “nobody” in the eyes of the world, suddenly claims to have had a vision and immediately he becomes the target of such great and tireless persecution. Why would that be the case if there weren’t some strong force, led by the adversary of righteousness, who really, really, really didn’t want anything to come from it?

Then he says he has found a record, and is translating it, and he starts a little church, with just a handful of people. A truly insubstantial presence by all worldly means. And suddenly whole communities rise up against them, tar and feather their leaders, drive them from their homes, burn their houses, put some do death, and even have the very United States issue an extermination order for them. How many little religious groups have there been throughout time who unlike Mormons, actually believe in truly destructive practices, that are simply unnoticed and waved off. Yet Mormons teach faith, hope, charity and love, with an attention to good works, but are fiercely combated on every front.

And the apparent gall of Joseph Smith, under such conditions, to make the statement that this church would be like a stone cut without hands, that rolls forth and shall fill the whole earth. But he was a prophet of God, and it was prophecy (prophecy often sounds ridiculous to those unprepared for it). And here we are today, teaching the gospel to nearly every nation, kindred, tounge, and people, with Latter Day Saints found literally throughout the earth, with some 13 million members, and almost 53,000 missionaries speaking hundreds of different languages, fulfilling his prophecy against all odds. Who’d have thought it possible, other than the prophet, so long ago.

All of this in spite of the best efforts of the adversary to thwart that work. Even down to a simple guy like me. I’m just a guy who got tired of all the garbage on the internet from people saying what Mormons believe, but who actually have no idea. So, I do a blog post entitled “What do Mormons really believe”. Should I have been even remotely surprised that the very first reply I got, not second, or third, but the very first reply was from an actual pastor of another religion saying “Mormons aren’t Christian”, and that we’ve been “misled”?

Fortunately, I wasn’t surprised, and I haven’t once minded any of the open discussion we’ve had (which since that time has been very enjoyable). But in the face of such adversity I don’t lose hope, I don’t get discouraged, I don’t wonder about my ability to answer questions. For truth is Mormonism, God is the author of it, he is my shield.

I believe Joseph Smith said it best when he said “The standard of truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing, persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, swept every country, visited every clime, and sounded in every ear. Till the purpose of the Lord shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say ‘the work is done’”.

He said that hundreds of years ago, when there was just a handful of people who believed in him. I say it today, hundreds of years later, on my little insignificant blog, as I watch in respect and wonder at the literal fulfillment of his very words.

Rusty

Hi Rusty, Haven’t had time to reply to your last post. I see that you had an emotional revival without me. I do want to get back to this “falling away”part. I knew that you would state it was all in the design of “God’s plan”. Only because you have nothing biblical to back up your claim. Surely Amos prophesied “the end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.” Like many other prophets who had announced the coming of a Savior, it was
God’s will fulfilled.

“But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,”

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

When you claim as you do “God’s plan” then could you please show me the prophesy of the falling away and the complete restoration?

From Rusty:

Yeah, I couldn’t help myself. Besides, it bore mentioning.

“…then could you please show men the prophesy of the falling away” 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first…” But I’ve already presented the scripture before you. You dismissed it as “whacking away at scripture”, perhaps you should read them. If you have a question on one of them, let me know.

Joseph Smith is no longer running for President of the United States as he did in 1944. It’s OK to denounce your enemy. It’s no longer an election year.

I’m going to vote for Obama, because he’s more Christ like, he is the target of attacks, and his faith and church is being scrutinized.

Now let’s get to Christ. I’m pretty sure that he was so confrontational that they ended up executing him.

Ok, do as you will. But you may consider a quote by Theodore Roosevelt that I’ve long enjoyed.

“It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbles, or how the doer of deeds might have done them better. No, the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat, and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again… Who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

Ok Then - I’ll go to Matthew 21:41-46 - That one just pops right at me.

“Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof.”

Who was Jesus speaking to? Who is the “you” - Go back to Matthew 21:23 - “And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?”

We see it was the chief priests and elders. So lets move on with verse 45

“And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.”

From Rusty:

I’m both stunned and disappointed at how poorly you understand the scriptures, it’s like you’re reading them, and not comprehending.

Of course he was speaking of them; it is they from whom the kingdom of God shall be taken. Read the parable. The parable talks about the Lord of the vineyard, how he had entrusted a winepress to some husbandmen. But when he sent his servants, they stoned and killed them. So he sent his son, and they did likewise.

The meaning is that God entrusted the people of that place and time with the truth of the gospel, he sent prophets (his servants), and they stoned and killed them. So then he sent his Son, and they did likewise. And what was the result? That the Kingdom of God was taken from them… again, the apostasy. The church of God among man was removed, and given to a nation bringing forth better fruits – or in otherwords, it was taken, and restored… apostasy, and restoration.

You keep asking for scriptures to tell you these things, but when I give them to you, you don’t study and pray and seek to understand them. They’re so clear. How much more clear can it be than “it shall be taken from you, and given to someone else”, is that not what constitutes a restoration? Something is taken, and then restored? Please, if you’re going to insult me, call me a coward for not responding immediately, and bask in your pretended glory for confounding me with scripture, at least understand what scriptures you’re talking about. These are all so easy.

The Qur’an is a compilation of the “Divine Revelations” that were received by Prophet Muhammad, over a period of 23 years, through the arch angel Gabriel. The Prophet used to recite whatever he used to hear. His companions used to write down whatever he recited.

God declares through Prophet Isaiah;

Isaiah Chapter 42, Verses 9-12.

“Behold, the former things are come to pass, and the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. `Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth’. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare His praise in the inlands.”

God did reveal in the Land of Kedar, through prophet Muhammad - a direct descendant of Kedar, a “New Song” - The Qur’an. Nearly 1.2 billion Muslims, residing all over the world, recite this “new song” and Glorify Allah, in their daily prayers, five times in a day. The initial Revelation came to prophet Muhammad in a cave of Mount Hira near the city of Mecca.

Sound familiar?

Not remotely, but that’s okay, the Bible tells us that many shall arise and lead away the very elect (sound familiar - hint Mathew 24:24) Each man must determine for himself whom he will follow.

But then, MartyH, we wouldn’t have the fullness of the Gospel and all the other blessings we’ve been given.

Your posts read much more like lambasting than questions or discussion. Rusty stated his purpose. Please be respectful and abide by it.

Margaret, I am sorry my questions seem like lambasting to some readers. I am sure other readers may find them appropriate. However I will try to respect Rusty’s rules.

But my experience has been with Mormon’s when they are challenged to justify there doctrine from the Word of God they hide in their shell like a turtle and proclaim persecution. So there you are Margaret, Rusty’s behavior seems cowardly.

I will be patient as well. Rusty when your ready, please show me in the Word of God where it is I can find the prophecy of the “great fall away” and the restoration given to Joseph Smith. This time instead of giving me verses that I have to learn and refute with no value in proving your theory, I ask that you find one verse and spend a few paragraphs or more explaining as how they prove your belief.

From Rusty:

Unfortunately, I’m not going to hold your hand. You won’t gain a testimony, nor clarity of understanding unless you invest a little yourself. I’m not sorry that I’ve given you verses that you’ve “had to learn”, perhaps you should see the value in learning them, rather than complaining about not being spoon fed the word of God.

I’m confused at you Marty. Earlier you said “we examine all things, whether they be truth or false, by the use of scripture”, and then in the next breath you’re complaining about having to learn new scriptures. You say “Show me where to find prophecy of the great falling away and the restoration”, but when I do, you say I’m “whacking away at scripture”, and don’t go do your homework to read and understand. You claim in an earlier comment that we should not believe something just because we were taught that way, or raised that way, but by scripture. But if you haven’t read these scriptures (for I’m making you learn them), whereon are your beliefs founded?

What all of this tells me, is that you’re not serious about learning the gospel. You’re not here to understand, you’re not here to seek, and you’re lazy.

Unfortunately, I’ve got other topics I’m anxious to get on to, and that are important to cover. But I’m continuously unable to get to them, because the precious little time I have I spend giving you scriptures that you gripe about having to learn. In short, it’s time I move on. I cannot help you, until you’re willing to be helped, and invested in learning.

So, because I am moderating your comments, I’ll be very selective now about what I let through. If it fits within the guidelines I’ve already explained to you, then I’ll allow it, if it doesn’t, if it’s simply repetative, or argumentative, or destructive, don’t bother, because I won’t let it through.

I wish you the best.

Rusty